Antler Restrictions

[SAMCRO]

This is a great example of why antler restrictions are not the most brilliant idea. This buck is perfectly legal, and I know many of you would shoot it. However, he's no more impressive than a 4-point or spike buck. I've seen this buck plenty of times, and he's 18 months old. Shoot him legally, sure, but he has good potential in a few years, I think.

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[SAMCRO]

If you think that buck was questionable due to brows, this one may be a better example. He's also an 18 month old, and I've seen him many times. Again, legal and fine, but not a mature deer and one with good potential.

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[PoisonSnake]

I don't disagree. But, until the hunting populus comes to some understanding that reducing the limit on antlered deer or moving the season back a bit is in their best interest, I can live with it. Those are exceptional 1.5 year old deer. If they came by my stand, I would put them in the 2.5 year old category without even thinking much about it. But, you have watched these deer. My wife shot one nearly identical to deer #2 this past fall. It too was a 1.5 year old buck and would have been fantastic as a 2.5 year old deer.

[SAMCRO]

I can live with it, too. If nothing else, it should allow for more bucks to live. I do worry that the really good young ones, like these, get killed before they get a chance to spread.

This is another shot of that first buck. You can more clearly see his face and neck, and more clearly see that he's an 18 month old. His body size and mannerisms are dead giveaways. This picture was yesterday evening, and I watched him for a long time. I've seen him a lot.

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[SAMCRO]

Here is a 2.5 year old from that same herd, obviously.

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[PoisonSnake]

SAMCRO, anymore I don't worry so much about it. I believe there are a lot more 1.5 and 2.5 year old deer breeding that what you may wish to think. I have only seen 2 deer breed. Both of them were 2.5 year old deer and I couldn't believe it. Furthermore, if we are merely speaking of genetics here, we also have to consider the does of which are being bred. And, right now, the focus of the MDC is killing does (which, I for one wish they would regulate a bit more).

But, as you have stated, statistics would suggest that if nothing else, it will allow more 1.5 and 2.5 year old deer to live another year or three.

[Warmouth]

Killing a deer like the one in your first pic is what made me swear off killing dinks. I was less than impressed at the decision I had made.

I do agree that the best genetic 1-2yr olds are up for the taking with the AR's now in place, and it protects the lessor bucks, even if they are much older.

Also, regarding what bucks actually breed does in the Nov rut...all of them do, age has little to do with it. The more dominant does hook up with the more dominant bucks, and after that it is a free for all. There is no way that a dominant buck can cover the majority of the does when they come into heat. He picks one, and is with her for 24hrs or so, leaving the younger bucks to cover the rest of the does that are seeking a mate at that time.

There have been several studies in the south about deer genetics, and in a wild/free setting, there is only so much the older dominant bucks can handle at one time. Going from memory, it seems like only 15-20% of the does were able to breed with a mature class of buck. In the study, some of the oldest bucks didn't breed or show rut activity at all.

[RB]

Good points on a/r SAMCRO.

[SAMCRO]

I agree with your points about breeding, and really wan't suggesting otherwise. What I'm suggesting is that an 18-month old deer like the above likely, although not clearly, has superior genetics. He may breed his first year, but if we kill him, he won't breed again after that, being dead and all.

If we have younger age class bucks breeding, and we do, I would like bucks like the above to be the ones doing it, or having the opportunity to do so.

I'd also like them to live, so we can see what they look like once they're mature.

[PoisonSnake]

I agree. But, and here is my experience with antler restrictions.... and what I have seen. I will use 2 years back as the example because I actually hunted 4 days prior to whacking that big one in the shoulder. Up and until I shot, I saw 31 different bucks from a stand in that 4 day period. 31. Now, only 3 or 4 of them were what I would consider an older age class. I think around 15 were 1.5 year olds and the remainder were what I thought were 2.5 year old deer. Over the years, I have seen a lot of 2.5 year old bucks and have let nearly all of them walk. But, I am seeing no improvements in the following years for an older age class of bucks. I may suck as a hunter, but I'm not even seeing these bucks from a truck seat. The genetics may not be great in my neck of the woods, but it isn't terribly bad either (at least for typical bucks). So, what gives?

[SAMCRO]

I don't really know. Look at all of the bucks around me, and really never saw a buck this year that was old. The one I was after I'm pretty sure was 4.5 but I wouldn't swear to that. With all of these 1.5 and 2.5 year old deer running around, I feel the same way.

[PoisonSnake]

Truthfully, I believe whole heartedly that rifle season is my problem.

[PoisonSnake]

I don't really know. Look at all of the bucks around me, and really never saw a buck this year that was old. The one I was after I'm pretty sure was 4.5 but I wouldn't swear to that. With all of these 1.5 and 2.5 year old deer running around, I feel the same way.

Well, SAMCRO, that is my point. If you put a lot of time on the stand like we do, you should be seeing some bigger bucks.

[SAMCRO]

We may be in the same boat. I heard dozens of rifle shots from the private farms at the river, and that is roughly a mile from me. I don't think sucking has much to do with it. Cameras don't lie.

[PoisonSnake]

Well, I have one camera that I need to send back to Bushnell. It sucks. But, I agree. I'm not getting the pictures of any true giants, but I know of 3 that lived from 2010. Where the hell were they? It really began to frustrate me in late December.